New coop server

[£éè£å-(DOG)-]

LOL

and I thought I'm crazy when I think about maps like SnaM or Night01-2

Well ok, it wasn't intentionally, but in that moment it looked just like that to me. My fault, I know how this thing works and it's a very good occasion to send another player to heaven.
I just was happy, that I managed to get some ammo before the map was ended again. And I just was frustrated when this thing cut me into pieces. First the crap in CrashSite1 with the hole in the ground and the stupid Mercs. I had enough ammo to attack them and after I died in this hole it was of course not enough. I used the eightball when I reached the Mercs again, but just in the moment when I loaded the last rocket, this door closed again. Well you all know what happens when you load your last rocket, that thing just fires no matter if something is in the way or not.
Brought me down from 200 to 16. One of the Mercs took another 10 points and then someone just ended the map. Again in the middle of a fight.
And sorry, but this cutter just gave me the rest. That's not really fun to play, but gives more frustration.

The idea of the reduced ammo is not bad, a little more challenge is always good. The problem here are the maps. They are just not prepared for this kind of game. With the current settings it's near to SP. In SP it would work just fine, but not in Coop. The reason is the amount of items in the maps. They were very well calculated by the designers, but for SP. For Coop with more players there is just not enough ammo and health to find. So there will always be players who have a disadvantage.

The goal was a better coop play, but it's just opposite. Players will have to look for their own advantage, be fast with picking up stuff and even get the enemies first before other players. Killing enemies means more weapons, more ammo and more advantage against the rest of the players. That looks, like said before, opposite to Coop for me.

I don't know, what are you thinking about it?

[Master_Unreal]

ammo can be set to respawn just like the weapons do, so plenty for all.

Even though the ammo can set to respawn, I still find it burdensome to have to run through the entire level again because you died, and even though this death could have been by a monster, what if it was not? Like what had happened earlier and when I had fallen from height that was just big enough to kill me with my 3 health, it would be annoying having to run through the entire level again just because of an accident, and keep in mind I am still talking about the original maps, what if this had been something like Skaarj Tower? A map that not only is very large, but is packed with monsters and even more prone to accidents. That would be even more frustrating, even though there are weapons scattered around everywhere, there is a lot more monsters than weapons, and losing your weapons in the tunnels would be just a bad thing, how would you be able to progress at all without slipping past many monsters? That doesn't sound like much fun, especially since the corridors in the maze can get rather tight, especially when there are Skaarj Gunners involved

[£éè£å-(DOG)-]

Hehe, Skaarjgunners can also be very annoying , especially when they use their shields. 7 damage with a rifle shot

Respawning ammo and health is not a good idea, I remember when we first needed respawning suits. I suggested to set bRespawnAll to True, but Sparky deactivated it again very quickly because the game had become to easy.
I know you can set the timers and set it for all other stuff like belts and suits very high, but that would not really solve the problem.
What's bad with the current settings is the fact that you loose all already collected things when you die. It's similiar here to MM.
I think it would be worth a try to change the amount settings. Not the pick up amount, but the default maximum amount of ammo.
1=50, 2=200, 3=200, 4=50, 5=48, 6=50, 7=75, 8=100, 9=50, 0=200
These values are still much less like the ones on server1. The challenge is still there and players still have to look for their ammo and work together. And especially with the health set to 100 instead of 200 it's more difficult than on server1. After a player died, he should respawn with the default settings for ammo and health, not only the pick up amount.

It's not possible to alter all maps for better coop play, which in between would be the best solution, but find a good balance with the settings.
Also I would highly suggest to activate VoteEnd on server2 with a value of 75%. Maprunning is annoying on server1, but on server2 it's really a pain.

[jackal-(DOG)-]

Think were going to have to set it at default ammo. It still be challenging with lower ammo and health to start with. And be close to pure as possible.

[£éè£å-(DOG)-]

Hm ok, my first suggestion for the amount is not good.
I still believe that only the Pick up amount isn't enough. I mean we can not only think of the standard maps, but also all other maps.
bRetainInventory already makes a difference between spawning at mapstart and spawning after death.
Something which can't be changed without a mod is, as far as I know, the max amount of ammo Unreal counts to and fills up the ammo. Unreal will always fill up the ammo for the rifle to 50 for example. Thats not JZCoop related, but Unreal itself. I never saw a way you can change that somewhere except under Ammo properties.
So with this in mind, the settings should be altered. I guess GiveItem is still used also for the default amount of ammo.
How about these settings?
1=50, 2=50, 3=100, 4=25, 5=20, 6=25, 7=30, 8=50, 9=25, 0=50
(50 for Automag and Minigun because Unreal adds 50 for the minigun when you enter the game, so the amount for both will be 100)

bRetainInventory of course set to False

There still will be the need to look for further ammo in many maps, especially costum maps. But after death players do not respawn nearly naked.
I made several tests and saw the problem. After mapchange the default PickupAmmoCount is added to the ammo. AutoRunCommands are useless here because that would also effect all in-map weapons and make them useless for pickup.

One other thing I noticed and an example for it:

Setting for the Stinger under PlayerControl:
GiveItem: Stinger:ammo#100
the default PickupAmmoCount of the Stinger is 40

If a player has 40 ammo for the Stinger at mapend, he will not have 80 in the next map, but 100.
If a player has 80 ammo for the Stinger at mapend, he will have 120 in the next map.

So the values will never go under the default settings given with GiveItem.

[£éè£å-(DOG)-]

Hm, I tested it again with the settings of the last post. It works just fine, no double. Only the PickupAmmoCount is added after mapchange.
One thing I forgot, the ammo of the Automag and Minigun increased by 70, 50 for the Minigun and 20 for the Automag.
These ammo settings are not easy for one player, even in the standard maps, especially with Titans so players are more forced to work together.

[Oldsparky]

Can someone tell me a simple explanation of what we are trying to get these settings to do, so I can pass it along to Zombie. I think what you want is to have it set so if you die, or at a map change, the weapons are set to default values in normal unreal, regardless of what you had at maps end. I must say that this will take a lot of work to get out maps where play will be impossible with these amounts.

[Oldsparky]

At Kamis suggestion we have turned on vote end with the approval level set above 70%

[£éè£å-(DOG)-]

Hm, that's weird, but I swear, that I'm telling the truth. Why should I lie?
I made many tests now with the settings and got always the same results.
Here are the original settings from the ini:

"
GiveItem[0]=automag:ammo#50
GiveItem[1]=Stinger:ammo#100
GiveItem[2]=ASMD:ammo#25
GiveItem[3]=Eightball:ammo#20
GiveItem[4]=FlakCannon:ammo#25
GiveItem[5]=Razorjack:ammo#30
GiveItem[6]=GESBioRifle:ammo#50
GiveItem[7]=rifle:ammo#25
GiveItem[8]=minigun:ammo#50

bRetainInventory=False
"

I always started in Nyleve. When I do not use the Rifle I will have 33 in Dig and 41 in Dug.
When I use the Eightball and have 5 left, I will have 20 next map. When 18 is left I will have 24 in next map. If you don't believe me, I can uplink the server and you can check it online.

For the example with the Rifle:
Are you really sure that you had bRetainInventory=False?
If not, it will not work.

[£éè£å-(DOG)-]

Hm yep I understand, but you can't avoid it because players get the weapons each time they spawn. And with the weapons of course the default pickup amount. Only way to make it work like you want it, is to not use GiveItem, but how should players get weapons then.

For the difference with the double there is maybe an explanation. I still run JZCoop 120 and Sparky told me the server runs 130. Perhaps thats the reason.

[£éè£å-(DOG)-]

Well, I watched the game on server2 for some hours now, and it's still not near the way you want it.
I like the idea, it would be something real different from server1 and much more challenging even without funky mods.
I thought alot over the last days about it and how it could work, but only with the standard settings it's not possible to reach the goal.
In the last map I had an idea how we could come to that goal much closer. I will have to make some tests, and if it should work I will post the results.

[SpiNacH]

OK, I apologize for opening this whole can ' O worms.

I actually suggested to Kami (much to her dismay) today that settings on server1 be changed, but upon reflection, I realize that making all these single player maps work in coop was no easy task, and that settings as are, are nicely balanced between fun and challenge. Server1 the way it is, is what brings many players, thanks to the efforts of ppl like Kami, Jack, Spark and many others.

As for server2, I would just like it to be different from server1 significantly. I am fairly oldschool and will probably continue to play server1 but I certainly appreciate a change once in a while. If it was modded out a little, perhaps Newbie's could cater to Oldskool players as well as players who prefer more of a run' n gun style.

My gratitude goes out to all the -(DOG)- 's effort getting changes happening and being open minded enough to try some changes. But I have come to realize some time ago that I no longer play for the game itself, but rather for the great people that play the game, and it matters not to me what settings the server sets, as long as I am able to share some fun with all these fine friends .

[£éè£å-(DOG)-]

Hm yup, I think server1 shouldn't be make harder because not only experienced and much skilled players visit the server. Also beginners come to the server and if it's to hard would be a disadvantage for those players. You may not believe it, but I often saw players who even didn't know the original maps.
The changes TomKat has in mind for server2 are more for experienced and skilled players. You need to know the game and have much endurance for hard fights. Imagine Skaarjtower, you really need a strong will to reach the end.
I'm, for myself not very skilled in Unreal, but I still love the challenge of hard fights. I remember many, many years ago I played games for points, hunted for records, always tried to be better than the last time. But with time the fun got lost and it was even frustration when I missed a new record.
Slowly I began to change, and today I play just for fun, not to be the best. Sometimes I see players on the server acting nearly agressive to get the most kills and points, can't believe that I nearly was the same in the past.

Server2 really should be different from 1, but not with crazy mods and other stuff. There are enough other servers out there with lots of mods players can choose from. That's why I like TomKats idea for it. Also it would be great for training game skills. If my new idea should work, maybe it can be set up for it. Of course only when Sparky would agree with it

[Zombie]

Hi

I will try to give support here regarding JCoopZ and some input on configuring towards the ideal server 2 setup (TomKatRebel's ? ). First of all, after reading through posts in a few threads I realize that some of you are talking about a gametype named JZCoop. I cannot help on that gametype. Only JCoopZ.

It seems I have to implement a coded solution in a new build for this specific GiveItem ammo incrementing issue. It has been a long time since I touched the GiveItem code, but I think it adds the weapons' pickupammocount to existing ammo every time a player (re)starts as long as it is below the ammo 'maxammo' number. Since the GiveItem amounts listed here are below 'maxammo' for each ammo type it will increment up until that. So in simple terms GiveItem does not limit the ammo amount below the default/standard maximum at this time. :- / What I can do is try to make a simple mutator that removes the pickupammocount for weapons given by the GiveItem list as a special temporary Newbies' solution and see if that works well enough.

As for TomKatRebel's mention of Health increase, I have not confirmed. As long as 'bSetHealth' playercontrol option is disabled the health should not be reset at level change. With it enabled it will always reset to the 'newHealthRef' value.

Onto what was discussed:

It appears to me that what is really wanted here is not a 98% pure 2nd cooperative server. That would be understandable because a 98% pure server, ex. Zora's servers, can be very tedious and frustrating for non-dedicated players. By giving items such as weapons to joining players it already removes the key aspect of 'pure' gameplay which is adventuring to find what will make future enemy encounters easier to survive. I do not consider that a bad decision however because 'pure' is not defined as better.

I read some indecision over using 'bRespawnAll' option. Do not overlook the supplemental 'InvRespawnTimes' settings in JCoopZ as a way to control the abundance of collectables too. It is possible to make ammo, health, weapons, and general inventory respawn at separate intervals ranging from few seconds to several minutes or not at all. So there is flexibility there so that multiple players have a chance to collect a type of inventory with enough time passed.


-Zombie

[Oldsparky]

From the Server admin point of view, wondering if this ammo mutator could be a part of your map fix mutator Zombie. It already runs on both servers. In a different topic, I wouild be happy to host a folder for you in the downloads section of our web site if you would like. Thanks for all your help.