ZIKI map (and SkaarjCastle)

post any map related problems you should find / description of map-fixes
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ZIKI map (and SkaarjCastle)

Post by VooDoo-(DOG)- »

This is a simple request about the map Ziki. I really like the "new version" of the map Ziki, with its enhancements and vastly improved ending, but is it possible that instead of using the original file name, that it could be renamed to reflect the fact that it is NOT the original version. I say this on a personal level and out of respect to the original author Matt Rasmussen (Razman). Anyone playing this for the first time will think that the current Newbies version is the original and this is not the case.

The original is a 1999 map and although by today's standards it would probably be judged harshly, at the time it was pretty clever with its "lift tricks" and other little unique touches. To be clear, I really love the new version but would suggest a name change similar to the way some of the Csejte/Zone maps have been tweaked and then renamed to say Csejte1_KK.

So? Any chance Ziki could become Ziki_KK in the same vein as the altered Csejte/Zone maps. Or maybe host both, Ziki and Ziki_KK ? Nice job by the way Leela I presume (Kamikaze).

On a related issue
Also, a long time ago I made the suggestion to Strategy of adding an extra book on a pedestal and an extra picture to the end of the map Skaarj Castle which would serve as a dedication to Glen. Now I can see why this idea could be met with reluctance due the grandeur and quality of the Skaarj Castle map. However I fail to see why it's deemed ok to change and rename a large proportion of the Csejte/Zone maps, completely rework the Ziki map (without changing the filename) and yet somehow it's not possible to change the Skaarj Castle map to SkaarjCastle_KK or SkaarjCastle_OldSparky for example. There seems to be 2 sets or rules at play here - thoughts anyone? I personally cannot see the problem with having 2 versions of Skaarj Castle on the server, say SkaarjCastle_V2F and SkaarjCastle_OldSparky or maybe only hosting the SkaarjCastle_OldSparky version at certain times, such as around the time of the anniversary of his passing, his birthday and christmas for example.

If it's ok to rework the entire Csejte/Zone series and rename a lot of those maps, it's ok to do it for SkaarjCastle. And conversely, if it''s not ok to rework and rename the SkaarjCastle map, then it's not ok to rework and rename the Csejte/Zone maps. I am just saying that it would be good to be methodical in the approach, instead of 1 rule for some maps and the reverse rule for others and if maps are going to be reworked (like Ziki) then at least be consistent and rename Ziki to Ziki_KK - it saves headaches in the long run..... :Drogar-BigGrin:

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Re: ZIKI map (and SkaarjCastle)

Post by strategy-(DOG)- »

your request is reasonable and i fully support this! ;)
i will change the mapfilename on all coop-servers and edit the config-files related.

regarding the skaarj castle map: yes, i still hope that we will host a modified version of the map some day in future, that will include a picture of oldsparky. leela showed me a draft of a modified version that she prepared back then and i really hope that she will find the time to finish the work on it. :)
and of course i talked to "drew" about our plans - right after you dropped this great suggestion - and he gave us the permission to edit the map.
newbiesplayground respects all authors' work, so we also had the permission from vividy to edit his maps.

the suggestion to rename edited maps is a good point and we will proceed with this principle! your hint on this topic is very much appreciated.
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Re: ZIKI map (and SkaarjCastle)

Post by VooDoo-(DOG)- »

Thanks Strategy,

Well it would be very neat to one day see a ever-so-slightly different Hall-of-Fame to the end of the Skaarj Castle map!
Out of interest, did anyone ever consider making a small DM / KOTH map for OldSparky, given that that gametype was more his thing?

I wasn't being specific when I referenced the Herd maps, I was just using them as an example of maps that got edited but so did their filename as well, which is a good thing and should be the case for the Ziki map as well. With the benefit that it might avoid a potential mismatch also.

So are you going to host the original Ziki as well or just the more recent edited version?

Thanks for response :)


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Re: ZIKI map (and SkaarjCastle)

Post by strategy-(DOG)- »

yeah, a special dm-map be cool :) sparky always said (with a smile of course) "i hate coop!" ;)

yes, you are right - edited maps should be renamed. leela said that too.
well, we can host any of the original maps on the servers but i would not add them to the rotation, as most mapfixes/-edits have been done for good reason to enhance coop gameplay. but it is fine with me to upload the original maps as well, so admins can call them any time. ;)
yet i am not sure, if i got an unedited version of ziki at all ;)

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Re: ZIKI map (and SkaarjCastle)

Post by VooDoo-(DOG)- »

Ah nice one! So it would now be possible to switch to the original version if admin - great! Below is a link to the original.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6a3jc8tskq4tikz/ziki.7z?dl=0

Now I am intrigued to remember why the original needed altering in the first place. Bet it was something to do with the Titan near the end :)
I will discover later!

Thanks Strategy!
 
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Re: ZIKI map (and SkaarjCastle)

Post by strategy-(DOG)- »

you are welcome! ;)
the original ziki.unr is available on all coop servers now.
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Re: ZIKI map (and SkaarjCastle)

Post by £éè£å-(DOG)- »

Hiya everyone :)

I was just around and stumbled over this thread. Unfortunately I'm a bit low on time right now, I will tell later a bit more about it.
But in short about Ziki
If you try the original map on the server with more players you will see why some fixes for coop had to be done. I remember the original map very well and players used to leave the server when it came up. Partly it was a real pain to play it, especially the lifts were insane.
But also the current version is still not good. The missing lift must be added again, or better say a new lift has to be made. The original lift is broken because it's a double actor and it only works good in SP.
But as said, I'm low on time now. I'll tell you later more about it.

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Re: ZIKI map (and SkaarjCastle)

Post by £éè£å-(DOG)- »

Ok, I'm back :D

Like I already said, the original Ziki map is not very coop friendly. There were several things which worked not good with more than one player. Also many players got confused in the map. I tried to make it a little more linear. For example you can't enter already finished parts now. Once they are done there is no more access to them.
But I did my best to follow the original story which can be found in the ReadMe file of the map.

Unfortunately after I finished the fix on that map there still was a nasty problem left. The map often used to crash the server. Back then I couldn't find the exact cause for it, because I had not enough informations. The server still was 225 and it was not possible to get a logfile after a crash. After the conversion to 227 I finally was able to get the informations needed. I made a quick fix for it and if the crash problem really is solved the rest of the problems can finally be fixed too.

The now missing lift must be added again. The part with the falling floor must be finished. The lifts and levers in the towers still work not good (my fault, I missed them).
And with the change to 227 a new problem occured. The gondula mover can't be used by players anymore, they simply fall through it. Means a new mover must be done for it. Also the map has some bad bsp errors.
After all is done the map should be closer to the original map again.
For the filename there was nothing I could do, because only Sparky made the decisions.

For the Csejte maps I had a personal reason why I asked Patrick to change the names.
In most of the maps you shouldn't notice any difference to the original ones. There were only some things which caused problems. I remember, that three maps could hang at the end. Reason for that were some Triggers which I assume were used in the testing phase of the maps but forgot to be removed after that. In four maps were really bad performance issues, Csejte5, Csejte9, Csejte21 and in Zone4.

Csejte5
After you left the first room at start your fps went below zero. This was caused by all the candles and torchflames. In several cases there were 5 or 6 candles in the same spot, but they still looked as only one. In total there were more than 1200 candles. I removed all the double candles, but unfortunately this still wasn't enough and I also had to remove the torchflames.

Csejte9
The fog in this map was a real fps killer. For players who didn't turn fog off in their render settings the map was hard to play.

Csejte21/Zone4
In these two maps there were unnecessary fps drops caused by two textures. For example in Zone4 many walls (more than 800 surfaces) use the barrel texture. This texture is normally only for meshes and is set to Masked by default. This means, that if a wall has this texture the engine will also render everything which is behind this wall. Even if you are in a small corridor your fps will drop when a large part of the map is behind a wall with a masked texture.
I imported the barrel texture as a normal one which is not masked and exchanged the textures on all surfaces. The new custom texture is MyLeveled so no extra file is needed. Visually there is no difference to the original map, but the fps is noticeable increased. In Csejte21 it was the same with the long blue tunnel.

Zone7
This map has a change which differs from the original map. I mean the end part. In the beginning many players had massive problems there and kept falling down. After some time most of the players were totally annoyed by it. When the map came up I often heard the question: Can we skip this one?
Also Sparky was annoyed and even wanted to remove the map from the rotation. Personally I like the original end, but I was very alone with my opinion :cheesygrin:
When I made the first fix for the problem with the black screen, which was caused by the SkyZoneInfo moving through the solid cylinders at some points I also added some lamps on the posts to make the way better visible for the players.
But it turned out, that that was even more confusing for the players. I also had sometimes problems with the lamps and fell down.

I thought a long time about a solution for this problem. On one side I wanted to keep it as original as possible, on the other I wanted a good solution for the players too. And then I had the idea with the platforms which are first invisible and become visible when a player moves on. Visual and with the sound they still should match with the atmosphere of the map.

If there are any questions about the fixes please ask. In most cases I still know why somthing had to be fixed and what was done.

Strat if you need any original maps please let me know. I always keep the original maps and work only with copies. :-D

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Re: ZIKI map (and SkaarjCastle)

Post by strategy-(DOG)- »

thank you very much for this detailed information, leela! :)

i am open to the idea to host all the original maps as well. if there is a demand we will upload the files!
yes, especially "zone7" is by far more playerfriendly now. i remember talking to vividy about that end part when he was on our server and he even apologized himself for that part because it was not as he would have wanted it to be. unfortunately we still have no idea why he vanished from the scene nor does he reply to mails.... yet i think he'd appreciate the fixes leela did here.

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Re: ZIKI map (and SkaarjCastle)

Post by VooDoo-(DOG)- »

Yes thanks for the details Leela, I am glad the edited Csejte/Zone maps were renamed, I was just looking for consistency with the renaming policy that's all, if Csejte were renamed then so should Ziki be renamed.
Many thanks for the details about why a few of the Herd maps were altered.
Yes Csejte 5 ground to a halt on entering the room with candles in at the very start - nice one. I play-tested these years ago for Vividy and have no idea why he didn't alter that at the time. Likewise with Csejte9 and the "ground "fog, I struggled to even move on this map, although I was playing them on his server with a ping of 350 - I couldn't even shoot properly. With regards to Zone7, this was roughly the time that Vividy left the game and he told me that he did have intentions of "fixing" the end, although I (like you) kind of liked it the way it was, but we are in a minority there :)
Whether or not Vividy got fed up with the game or left for other reasons is unclear. After being in constant contact with him for years, his departure did seem very abrupt. It should be noted though that at the time he was in his 60s, had grand-children and maybe health got the better of the him, in one way or another. I know 2 other japanese players Mike(JPN) and Number2 who I used to play with, but I do not see them online either, although they did used to restrict themselves to the Herd servers from what I can see.

One thing I do know is that although the Herd series is perhaps not the greatest, it counts as one of the most significant achievements in our game. You got to remember Vividy knew next to nothing of english and communication was difficult to say the least. So to achieve what he achieved using the editor is one of the finest accomplishments in this game I have ever seen. I've toyed with the editor for years and after 17 years am still pretty much clueless with mapping. Hats off to him I say :)

There are many little easter eggs (personal ones I guess for Vividy) that he left in his maps. The colourful sign on the ground floor in Zone4 is a japanese sign meaning "bathroom" for example :) His grand-children can be seen in one of the buildings in Zone2. The billboard that says "SweetPea" in Zone 2 refers to his mother. Also in Zone2, the maps on the wall in the train station refer to his home city Osaka and there is a neat little secret in Zone3 which I have seen noone else find - yet. There are others but these are the ones off the top of my head :)

Thanks for the edits Leela, the ones you edited are indeed more playable and this is a good thing.

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Re: ZIKI map (and SkaarjCastle)

Post by Solid_Snake1998 »

Vividy... That name rings a bell... We used to play together although I never knew he was from japan. When did he leave?
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Re: ZIKI map (and SkaarjCastle)

Post by strategy-(DOG)- »

hmm, good question. i think i did not see vividy within the past 2 years. and the herd servers had gone offline afterwards.
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Re: ZIKI map (and SkaarjCastle)

Post by Solid_Snake1998 »

are there any other active Japanese unreal players you guys know of? like a former friend of mine: Pearlofasia. and I really hope nothing bad happened to vividy.... :frown:
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Re: ZIKI map (and SkaarjCastle)

Post by VooDoo-(DOG)- »

Rubie wrote: I know you a smart Guy Voodoo..........
No I am definitely not one of those ..... :) :shock:

Hey Rubie, thanks for input. With regards to my original post, I have no problem whatsoever about maps being edited, I was merely looking for consistency in the renaming convention.

ie. If Csejte maps are being renamed to Csejte_KK then the same should apply for maps like Ziki which have been heavily edited. Ziki should be named Ziki_KK for example to keep things consistent. I have the originial Ziki in my maps folder at all times, because it is one of the earliest maps I remember playing, so to avoid potential mismatches and to keep things seperate, I prefer the way it is now with Ziki being called Ziki_KK.

My post was actually not based around the Herd maps, the topic just split a little I guess. My main point was that if maps like the Herd pack and Ziki can be altered (and renamed) then surely so can the SkaarjCastle map, I don't see why some maps are seen as "more important" than others and thus untouchable, because it would very fitting to alter the end of the SkaarjCastle map to include a book and a photo of OldSparky and then rename SkaarjCastle_V2F to SkaarjCastle_V2F_KK (as an example if Leela were to add a book and a picture of OldSparky at the end).

With specific reference to Zone3, which you mention, I presume this is now Zone3_KK now because I have not looked yet!. The last time I played Zone3 on Newbies, the secret cave of sliths behind the waterfall with the special belt was missing, which I personally find a shame. There is a difference between making a map "work better for coop" and deleting parts of the original map. I played Zone3 for at least 4 years before it came to Newbies and even with a ping of 350 on the Herd server, I (we) never had a problem ending it, so I am not sure why the secret cave was removed - but no matter. Zone3 was never a "broken" map. Sure it can be laggy due to its huge size but that is a different issue. Let's not lose parts of the original map eh?

Yes I was part of Herd, but I have zero issues with tweaking maps and renaming them :) So I thank Strategy-(DOG)- for his cooperation in this matter.

WOOF WOOF! from VooDoo-(DOG)- who is very happy to go "Woof" and is not a nostaglic ex-Herd member! Any map is important to me, because they all represent the history of our game, regardless of their quality or perceived quality. :ugeek:
 
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Re: ZIKI map (and SkaarjCastle)

Post by Solid_Snake1998 »

good to know rubies ok..... he never replied to my last PM...... :| :Drogar-Laugh:
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